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Government Discussion

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Government Discussion

Post by Vizindolf on August 14th 2013, 11:55 pm

Here is the thread for discussing things about the government.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by Guest on August 15th 2013, 12:02 am

Okay, at least I have found the thread; thanks for starting it. I will discuss more tomorrow.

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Re: Government Discussion

Post by Abacathea on August 15th 2013, 1:12 pm

Firstly, may I start by stating it was not my intention to shout anyone down last night. Certainly no disrespect was intended to anyone, especially GROSS. That notwithstanding the debate was degenerating fast. And a decision had to be made at the time. I stand by that decision.

Now to the crux of the issue. I'm personally quite ambivalent regarding this issue. On one hand you have the old committee, which despite claims by GROSS was not as productive as we'd be led to believe.

Then we have the consuls which have been quite active behind the scenes in my opinion and the justices who are yet to be called upon.

The accusation that the consuls are omnipotent is one I find quite laughable. Their power is no more or less than what the iwurc had in terms of making a decision as ratifying it. The iwurc had its presidential vote and here there be justices. The differences if any are minimal.

I will remain for the most part a peacekeeper in this enterprise and let those of you with sides picked and lines drawn battle it out. But I stand by the fact this is not to spill over into the RMB again.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by Guest on August 15th 2013, 2:09 pm

I agree with you, Abacathea, that the old government was not as productive as GROSS states. But after thinking it over, I almost have to agree with him that the IWURC should probably make a return. I'm proud to have been elected as a consul, but honestly, we haven't done much, and neither have the justices. I think if we were to bring back the IWURC to make those kinds of decisions, it would be more democratic, and give many other nations a chance to hold a position. When recruiting, part of the letter talks about the democratic process of the IWU, and how nations get to vote and hold government positions. But really, we rarely hold elections, and newbies get tired of waiting around for a position they'll probably not be able to have, anyway. We need something for everyone.

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Re: Government Discussion

Post by DR Cabo Puerta on August 15th 2013, 2:16 pm

In my opinion, we should have new elections, because everyone is fighting over this issue.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by Guest on August 15th 2013, 3:03 pm

Well, we are going to have new elections. That's our whole problem. You haven't been around, Cabo Puerta, but we've had some past stuff that has happened, and we are trying to figure out what should be done about it for the better of our region.

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Re: Government Discussion

Post by Vizindolf on August 15th 2013, 4:23 pm

@Abacathea: You are correct in not wanting this debate to spill over into the RMB. Also, I apologize for my role in it. It was rather childish of me and I hope the region accepts my apology.

@Rachara: I see your point about the IWURC and how it could help newer nation involve themselves in the government. However, I must remind you that the IWURC really did not do much. There were only two proposals ever passed. Also, the only real activity that they had was giving the boot to officials who were not active.

You are also correct that the Consuls have not done much, but why do they need to? Why must we be active even when nothing is really going on? Besides, we have not even completed one term yet. I believe we should at least give what we have a chance.

I would like to continue the discussion about possibly putting into place something along the lines of the IWURC though, as I agree that it might be good for newer nations.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by GROSS Independency on August 15th 2013, 6:12 pm

I want to begin by stating a few select things.

First, due to Abacathea's response, I apologize for anything that may have seemed offensive or forceful in my proposal. However, I would like to explain myself. When I returned on July 17th, I found there was a different government system; actually, I had already been aware of this, because, as I will state now, Rachara happens to be a relative of mine and she had told me a few things about what had happened.

Because I am one of the original 13 members of the IWU, I consider the region above all to be my home, and I hold its success and prosperity in highest regard. As a result, the system of government and how the region is maintained is a very, very serious subject for me. So, after I returned, I decided to observe the new system and come to a decision on whether I thought it was sufficient or not. In the month of my observation, I witnessed no government activity.

As a result, I felt that the system wasn't functional enough and would not be functional enough to properly maintain and serve the IWU in the light I would have the region in without some serious consideration of changes. I will state again, I find the government a very serious subject because of my feelings toward this region, and so I made sure to write my proposal in a very clear and very serious sense. It was also critical for me to make the proposal directly point to the flaws I have observed, so that everyone would be keenly aware of them. Because I feel the IWU should be served in a better way than this government does, the proposal had to be as forceful as possible to more strictly outline what I feel must be done.

With that in mind, I again wish to assure you that I respect the efforts put into the project and I am aware of the circumstances surrounding its creation--however, I would also like to bring to your attention the fact that there ARE flaws in this system that can be easily fixed, and with sufficient time and contributors, all of us are aware we can piece together either something better or an improvement on what we have. That should be obvious to everyone, and I hope that it is.

Now that I have pointed out what I dislike about the system now in employment, I will list to you the features I do agree with:
1: I do like the fact of having multiple head executives. It is an effective balance of power for the head of administration, and perhaps in this new, improved system I hope we can all agree to try to replace the president with a group of executives with reduced power from the current state of the Consuls.
2. I also like the addition of a vice-recruiter. It was very hard to manage everything alone as a recruiter, especially in keeping records.
3. The idea of an RP Arbiter was also useful. In my view, I don't really consider that an executive position, but I agree with the fact that someone should be picked to check on things now and then. The RMB Topic Overseer was a decent idea--however, I feel the position is unnecessary, as Kialga is the one who suppresses post, so ultimately he could just be left to that without appointing someone else to do it.
4. Lastly, I do like the idea of the Justices, although I feel they have been given excessive power. We had them before, and I liked the idea then; however, my opinion is that their duties should encompass not only righteousness of new laws, but also convictions of nations who are potential for ejection. Other than that, the only other thing is that I believe that a referendum, if proposed, should be the authority over Justice decisions. The only thing this would change would be that in cases where the Justices would decide to side with a disliked executive law, a vote would be able to set things right as a backup.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by GROSS Independency on August 15th 2013, 6:58 pm

Now, I will again resume the debate.

Regarding everyone's claims toward the IWURC: The IWURC was not incredibly active; the point I was trying to make, however, was that it did more in its short period of about a month of activity than have the Consuls so far. My other argument is that the small productivity of the IWURC was, I believe, not due to an ineffective institution, but instead by a rather severe shortage of active and enthusiastic members. I feel that if we create something similar to it, we may this time, having learned form our mistakes, choose this time for office some nations who, instead of being popular, experienced or large, should be those who display the most enthusiasm about the region and those who present the most ideas. The point of the IWURC was to introduce new ideas to the system; our problem was not the IWURC itself, but instead the people within it. That problem could have been fixed by a constant and healthy flow of new IWURC proposals, which in turn could be provided by ensuring that the best people are chosen this time.

About the Consuls, I do not mean any offense by saying this, but thus far the Consuls have made little to no advancements in our government. There is relatively little importance of, as Abacathea put it, "behind the scenes" activity; the job of the Consuls, as with any other executive position, should be to produce new ideas and actively manage things. As Rachara herself has pointed out, the Consuls have accomplished little in an entire month. Instead, however, again with no offense intended, the system has simply filled in the required spot for a government. The system is a government; the problem with it, however, is that it is ONLY a government. It fulfills the presence of some organizing system, and that is essentially it. There have not been enough accomplishments or activity for the system to fulfill the DUTIES of the government.

About the power of the Consuls, specifically to Abacathea, I did not say the Consuls on their own were omnipotent; I said that if the Justices and Consuls agreed on something, THEN both parties would be omnipotent, and the citizens would have no ability to overturn the decision. That is a very major disadvantage to the prosperity of the region. While it may be a rare occurrence, that by absolutely no means excuses us from overlooking and ignoring it. In comparison to the IWURC, the IWURC had only specific powers, and a referendum could overturn a bad law if necessary. Here, however, the Justices have power over the referenda.


In response to Vizindolf:
My explanation earlier should be sufficient to answer this; I believe the low productivity of the IWURC was not due to a faulty or ill-made system; it instead was simply the product of a majority of inactive officials, which essentially crippled its would-be ability to operate quickly and effectively. A new version of the IWURC would indeed be an excellent place to stick enthusiastic newcomers; they wish to become engaged in regional activity and are eager to become important in their new home. Furthermore, I think we will see a vast decrease in the number of nations going inactive if nations can be put somewhere they enjoy right when they enter the region. That will very quickly build their confidence and opinion of the IWU. Now, as a suggestion for change in what I hope to create as a new system, perhaps the expelling of inactive officials could be handed instead to whatever head executive power is created. That way, an entire vote need not be undertaken, and the inactive official can simply and immediately be thrown out and replaced with faster speed.

Now, Vizindolf, to your declaration that the current system should have a longer chance:
I understand your wishes for more chances--however, usually the earliest period of operation for a system is busiest, and as there has been little activity in the system's first month, I have very strong doubt that anything better will arise on its own. Since we are aware of improvements we can make now, there is no reason to simply put them off; sooner or later, improvements will need to be made, and they would be better made sooner rather than later.

Now to your question "Why must we be active even when nothing is really going on?" The purpose of a government, my friend, is not to wait for something to come to it. A government's duty is to create those things. THAT is the importance of ideas in a system. There is always a powerful requirement for the flow of new opinions and proposals through the government. If a system waited only for things to come its way, it would seldom get anything done. To maintain an active and functional region, the government must be the body providing "what's going on."
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by Vizindolf on August 15th 2013, 8:44 pm

@GROSS:

 

Tell me if I am wrong, but I believe that you see two major problems with the current government. First, you believe that the Consuls and Justices have too much power. Secondly, you believe that the current government is not active enough. I will address both of these concerns.

 

An executive branch without power is nothing. I experienced this myself when I was President of the IWU. The President really had no power. This left the power spread far too thinly over a group of largely inactive officials in the IWURC.  That is what led us to the crisis that we were in. I am sure that many of these nations were enthusiastic about the IWU and had great ideas, but most likely life got in the way and they simply did not have time for NationStates anymore.  When they quit, our government became completely ineffective.

 

I do believe that there is room for compromise though. I see your point regarding the belief that the Consuls and Justices together can essentially rule. However unlikely, I agree that we must prepare for the worst. Here is my idea for compromise:  We add a clause into the Constitution, that if a very great percentage of nations, say 20%, disagree with both the Consuls and Justices, the nations can demand that a region wide vote take place on the topic. This way, the vast majority of proposals can be handled efficiently by the Consuls, but there is still room for referendum. This would also better prevent another crisis, because our entire government won’t be built around an IWURC.

 

Now I will move on to your second problem with the current government. You claim that it is a government’s duty to continually create activity. I will counter with a story. I have been in the region since October 24th 2012, about a month after the IWU was founded. I quickly took an interest in our regional government and observed it closely. Aside from tri-monthly elections, they did very little. This did not hurt anything though, as everything went smoothly without constant governmental actions. I experienced the same thing when I was President. Even before the crisis began, the government did very little. After the series of elections that put me into office ended, the only sign of governmental activity was the occasional government official being thrown out of office, though that too had largely ended by that point because I had already left the IWURC. My point is this, why should our government continually create issues when they are not needed. I am not saying that we shouldn’t be looking for ways to improve, but why create problems where there are none? I do believe that the people in the IWU are largely happy with the current government. Obviously, if anyone has an idea, the current administration would be more than happy to work with them.


Last edited by Kialga on August 15th 2013, 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : sorry, had to kill the formatting. hard to read on this theme.)
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by Guest on August 15th 2013, 9:14 pm

Here is part of my two cents on all of this:

Compromise is necessary. Neither way, the current system or the proposal is going to work. And why do I say this?

As GROSS was one of our founding nations, I believe it's important that we listen to his ideas. But it's also important that we listen to Vizindolf. He stepped in in basically a time of crisis and set all of this up, and while it may not be perfect, neither was the old system.

The old system was too much of a jumbled mess in some ways, the way I see it. Yes, I think the IWURC was great, and I think that we should definitely implement it again, and if we got it working the right way with the right people, it would be a great way to have new nations get involved in the IWU. But...we held elections way too often, and it seemed as soon as we finished up with them, the next set was beginning and we had to start over with the whole grueling process again. The president basically had nothing on them but a title, and that's also why I like our consul idea.

But the new system has it's flaws, and it seems as though we've hardly gotten anything accomplished since we've created it. The only way nations outside the government can be involved in the region is pretty much through the RMB, and that's honestly the truth. They don't deserve that. There needs to be more democracy.

We need to stop debating now about which way, in it's whole, is best, and start shoving ideas from each together to create a system that will work. I think I will post the link to this thread on the RMB and try to get more people involved to hear their opinions.

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Re: Government Discussion

Post by Vizindolf on August 15th 2013, 9:29 pm

Thank you, Rachara. As usual, you are the voice of reason. I will be the first to admit that there are flaws in the current system. Flaws that we can fix. I look forward to working with everyone to improve our government.

Also, I see the need for newer nations to have their shot. I am happy that Rachara and Kialga are getting the word out about this meeting. It is a great way to get new nations involved. To show just how committed I am to letting new nations have a shot, I will not seek a government office during the next election. I would like to be there as an unofficial advisor though, if the next group of leaders would approve of that.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by GROSS Independency on August 15th 2013, 9:38 pm

I may be a while before I can reply. I'm currently working on quite a lot of homework for my AP classes, and it may be until after 10:00 before I can write a full reply. Please excuse the long wait.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by Guest on August 15th 2013, 9:45 pm

Vizindolf, it is not necessary that you drop your position in the future to show your intentions, but if you feel so that you should, we will all respect your decision, but will miss your guidance and leadership.

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Re: Government Discussion

Post by Aardenland on August 16th 2013, 12:22 am

I think we should get to drafting a constitution, maybe parallel to this discussion.

I don't the roles of the officials have been properly defined yet, and that by beginning drafting, our discussion can revolve around what their roles should be.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by GROSS Independency on August 16th 2013, 12:23 am

@Vizindolf:

You are somewhat correct in what the flaws I have found are.

It should be obvious that an executive branch must have some power, and I definitely agree with you that the president did not have enough before. To be very brief, my solution to the problem would be something like this, which, of course, may be discussed freely in the meeting: The head executives, which I mentioned earlier probably should be a group like they are now, would have most of the same power they have now; they can make and vote on their own proposals. If their proposal is passed within the Consuls or whatever we decide to name them, I think the Justices should vote on its worth BEFORE it is passed. That way, the resident nations would be angered by fewer proposals than might occur the current way. The only other change I would push for would simply be the ability of a resident-proposed referendum to override the decision; in other words, the Justice's decision wouldn't be ultimately final if it was disagreed on.

The idea that you have presented could also be a viable solution. There would have to be a way to check for an actual 20% disagreement level, though. If we could find a way to do that, I would say that it is fully viable.

To address your story, I too realize the old government was not very active--that is why my hope isn't to recreate the old government, as I have said, but to draw from benefits of both systems and add more ideas to the mix. I did not consider the system fully developed then, and the reason I refrained from designing a proposal to improve that system was because it was the original system, and I felt few people would be willing to work through the flaws to partially give up the original building block. Now, however, as this system is fairly new and there is a lot to do, it is a very good time to make improvements as needed.

What I said about the duties of the government was not that the government should create problems. The government shouldn't be pointing fingers and punishing all the time to be occupied; what I meant was that the government should always be looking for ways to improve itself, and at the same time looking outwards to other regions as well. To conclude, I respectfully point out that I believe everyone would be more willing to work to improve things than to stick with the current system. As I have stated several times, the current system is not a "failure;" it does have benefits, which I have addressed, and my intent is not to destroy what you have worked to create but to repair and strengthen it. Although you have said you are willing to work in a meeting to improve the system, you seem to imply that the current system does not need improvement or cannot be improved.

@Rachara:

I certainly agree with you, and I have pointed out the factors that I believe Vizindolf was wise in creating. I also agree with you with the frequency of elections--for that subject, I will state that the period should be less than 6 months and more than three, out of my own opinion. I also understand your opinions toward the Consuls.


Setting aside the argument:
I will conclude this by stating what I intend for the meeting. As I have spoken with Kialga, the meeting--more correctly, discussion--will begin this Saturday. It is not going to be limited to a certain time of day or anything; it is to continue as long as we feel it should. I believe that we should halt the current debate here, as it is now turning into a disorganized argument. It would be to our benefit if we moved the discussion to the meeting on Saturday. I intend for the meeting to be set aside as an independent thread; within it, I will place separate discussions for each office we feel is necessary for such discussion. In that light, the decisions will be organized, and we can move from one position to the next instead of grappling with everything at once. Not only will this allow us to catch more flaws before they emerge, but it will also make deciding upon the most popular ideas far more effective and simple.

So what I ask is that we suspend the debate until then--as of now it seems we are taking sides like different factions in a war; however, as regionmates, coworkers, and I shall venture to say friends, we should be working as a team to try to compile the most effective system we can, for each other and for everyone else in the region. I am proud to have recruited you, Vizindolf, because not only have you been a very influential member from the moment you arrived, but even now, despite our disagreement, you are defending something for what you believe is right for the region. I feel the same way, Abacathea, towards you, and I cherish these as an accomplishment of mine. I hope you agree with me.

So, setting aside the debate, I wish to use this thread for the purpose of deciding which positions we must outline in the thread for the meeting. I believe a head executive is definitely necessary, as well as the justices, recruitment, WA delegate, intelligence group, ambassadorial committee, advisor, the chairman, and the RMB overseer and the RP arbiter. I believe we should take the time here and now to decide on any more positions we should add or modify.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by Gatito on August 16th 2013, 3:49 pm

How about we outline the government as a whole.
Instead of only doing the individual positions, maybe we can discuss how the positions work in unison.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by GROSS Independency on August 16th 2013, 5:02 pm

@Gatito: That will come after the individuals. This is for two reasons. First, we can't work on how the positions work together if they aren't established yet. Second, it would be very difficult to organize things if we discussed the entire government at once. This way, we can focus on a single position at a time and make things very specific--also, it will be easy for us to decide on the most popular ideas if we don't have votes for ideas going on all over the board.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by GROSS Independency on August 16th 2013, 5:48 pm

To begin whatever discussion will take place here, I am going to add a topic, at the very end of the list, for a regional congress of some sort. Mind you, this does not mean there will be one, this just means the subject of having one or not and how it would be made would be discussed there.

If anyone else has ideas for other new positions, by all means post them here, and I will add it to the topic list.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by Kialga on August 16th 2013, 10:24 pm

I am going to go ahead and throw up the rough draft of a proposal I believe can solve parts of our discussion.




Article One: In order to form an orgainzed, semi-active, government that can be agreed upon by multiple parties, The Rainbow Commonwealth of Kialga calls for the creation of several offices. The current World Assembly Delegate will fill become the President of the Region. The Founder will take the Vice-President role within the Region. In a similar fashion to the United States of America, there will be the establishment of a bicarmel legislative branch. Secretary of Recruitment will remain in effect for the proposal, with no major changes from the current duties of the position. A small Justice Committee will also be kept in place, but with a varying of procedures. Role-Playing Arbiters, Regional Message Board Topic Overseer, and the Intellegence Group will remain largely unchanged.

Article Two: The Office of the International Western Union President will be filled by the World Assembly Delegate (as stated in Article One). The position will have the power to veto any legislation that passes through the legeslative branch. If the president agrees with the legislation, it will go into effect within the region. If he vetos it, the piece of legistlation will return to the Legislative Branch. In addition, the President will be able to assign missions to the Intellegence Group. All missions must be proven to be worthwhile and of good nature to ensure the regions safety.

Article Three: The Office of the International Western Union Vice-President will be filled by the founder of the region. The Vice-President will also serve a the head to both Branchs of the Legislature. While the Vice-President cannot place his vote into any legislation, he is in charge of tallying the votes and reporting this vote to the Region. This comes as the Office of the Official Chairman merges power into the Office of the Vice-President. All voting within the Region will pass through the Office of the Vice-President before becoming official within the region. The Vice-President reserves the ability to reject any missions assigned the Intellegence Group.

Article Four: The establishment of a Bicarmel Legislative Branch will become a firm institution of which legislation within the International Western Union will be controlled. A Lower House, the Counsels, will be placed into effect. This Division of the Branch will be represented by 2 members of each continent of the IWU, no matter the overall population of the continent. The two member nations will be elected by the fellow nations on the continent in order to best represent them in the Counsel Halls. The second house, the Upper House, or the Regional Council, will have a seperate representation system. For every 3 nations to inhabit a continent, 1 nation will be able to be elected to the Regional Council. The number of nations required to have a representative in the Regional Council will be able to be changed as need seen fit.

    Article Four-One: All legislation to pass through the Congress of the International Western Union must first pass the Counsel Hall. Five-Eighths of all Counsels must agree that the legislation is worthwhile for the region. Once it passes the Counsel Hall, it will then move onto the Regional Council. Five-Eighths of all Council members must agree upon the legislation in order for it to pass. Once it is passed by the Legislative Branch, the legislation moves into the President's hands. The president has the ability to Accept the legislation and make it into law for the region, or reject (Veto) it. If he so chooses to Veto the legislation, it returns to the Counsel Halls. This time Two-Thirds of the Counsels must vote for it to pass before it moves onto the Regional Council. The Regional Council must still vote Five-Eighths of member nations before it passes. This time, if the legislation passes, it becomes law no matter if the President disagrees or not.

Article Five: The Justice Committee will be established to be formed of one Justice per continent. If this number is uneven, another Justice will be placed upon the Committee. This extra Justice will be the most popular from every continent. The major powers of the Justice Committe are to: evaluate "Banjection" requests, listen to and evaluate intra-regional disputes, and to decide upon the worthwhile necessitty of a piece of legislation if Two-Thirds of the Regional Population agrees upon the need to remove the legislation.

Article Six: All preiviously established positions that are not directly effected by this Proposal remain in the same operation system as previously ran. This includes: Secretary of Recruitment (renamed: Recruitment Cabinent), Intellegence Group, and the RMB Topic Overseer along with the RP Arbiters.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by GROSS Independency on August 17th 2013, 12:32 am

@Kialga:

I agree with some of your points and disagree with others. For example, I like the idea of a double-branched legislature, but as very, very few of our members are on the map and will go onto the map, representation will be very severely limited.

I also agree with most of the Justice ideas, with the exception of continental representation.

On the other hand, I will point out the two things I don't agree with. One is the placing as vice-president and president the founder and current WA delegate, respectively. The same people can't stay in the same office all the time--there is a need to elect new people and allow new ideas to be brought into the system, as well as to give everyone else a chance to shoot for those roles.

The second thing I dislike is your description of the roles of the president, vice-president and legislature. It is essentially identical to the previous system of government. While that system worked well for a time, it wasn't good enough to support itself and keep authority active and functional. In that regard, I suggest further analysis and evaluation of possibilities in those areas.

As I asked you earlier today, it may be helpful if you brought your ideas into the meeting. While this is entirely up to you, that may be, one, the more likely way to have some of your ideas put into place, and two, it will provide your plan with a chance to be edited and revised to where it may work well enough to be part of the new government system.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by Kialga on August 17th 2013, 6:54 am

Yes, I understand GROSS. As stated within the proposal , it is just a rough draft, meaning if it can be agreed upon in basics, it can be edited as we see fit. The descriptions are terrible because I was fighting for time to get it posted before today (Saturday). On your last point, I brought it up here so that, if people wanted to, they have the ability to read it and discuss it during the meeting.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by GROSS Independency on August 17th 2013, 9:21 am

Ok, great.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by Aardenland on August 17th 2013, 1:24 pm

I think there has to be a better way to determine legislators than by continents.  Not everyone is going to be on the map, you know.
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Re: Government Discussion

Post by GROSS Independency on August 17th 2013, 5:18 pm

@Aardenland: I agree. Are you going to join the discussion on the other thread? That's the one where we are actually deciding what we're going to do for the government. This one was made for the debate. (just in case you were unaware.)
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Re: Government Discussion

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